Part 2

In this return entry we are discussing the merits of visual aesthetics and overall game design in the Fighting game genre. Which one is more important? How much does Character Design relate to making a person play a fighting game? Does age hinder the effectiveness of character design on newer generation? Is using current trends hurting the lasting power of a characters design? In this second post of two, I  discuss with Industrial Designer, Arthur about the previous conversation with JC and my overall thoughts on Character Design. Jack Hatred also gives his thoughts on this subject.

Arthur (4:02:01 PM): OK jump in here

Arthur (4:02:10 PM): being as objective as possible

Arthur (4:02:19 PM): from an artistic stand points

Arthur (4:02:48 PM): which is better for animation, originality, design, and charcater make up

Arthur (4:02:59 PM): Gulity Gear or X-Men vs. SF?

Julian Lytle (4:03:43 PM): ooo

Julian Lytle (4:03:45 PM): that’s tough

Julian Lytle (4:04:11 PM): I think GG owes a lot to the Capcom x Marvel games

Arthur (4:04:38 PM): that is not what is the question

Julian Lytle (4:04:41 PM): I know

Arthur (4:04:45 PM): everything is influenced by everything

Julian Lytle (4:04:46 PM): I’m thinking out loud

Arthur (4:04:48 PM): ok

Julian Lytle (4:05:00 PM): cause it’s hard to be objective for me

Julian Lytle (4:05:04 PM): it’s the fucking X-Men

Arthur (4:05:07 PM): i know

Julian Lytle (4:05:10 PM): the 90s X-Men at that

Arthur (4:05:28 PM): if you knew nothing about either

Arthur (4:05:36 PM): you saw them standing side by side

Julian Lytle (4:05:36 PM): that’s hard dude

Julian Lytle (4:05:45 PM): one had 30 years of existence

Julian Lytle (4:06:02 PM): x-men vs. street fighter

Julian Lytle (4:06:10 PM): is the tag component

Julian Lytle (4:06:17 PM): that was some ground breaking shit

Julian Lytle (4:06:25 PM): people flying in and out

Julian Lytle (4:06:34 PM): ginormous supers

Julian Lytle (4:06:43 PM): three screen high boards

Julian Lytle (4:07:21 PM): if it was just animation GG edges it out a little bit

Arthur (4:07:57 PM): yeah, this wasn’t about game play

Arthur (4:08:39 PM): even though when a game has infinites i can’t count it as a real system

Julian Lytle (4:08:54 PM): I can

Julian Lytle (4:08:59 PM): cause it has super heroes in it

Arthur (4:09:16 PM): it is a fun game

Arthur (4:09:23 PM): but it is broken

Julian Lytle (4:09:51 PM): yeah

Arthur (4:10:00 PM): if there is no balance in the sense that I can’t do something about absuable items, then it is just something fun to play

Julian Lytle (4:10:01 PM): I feel games with superheroes should be broken

Arthur is available (8:43:14 AM)

Julian Lytle (4:10:56 PM): yeah

Arthur (4:11:17 PM): krack head

Arthur (4:11:53 PM): the basis for a fighting game is to match things evenly

Arthur (4:11:55 PM): balance

Arthur (4:12:18 PM): if that’s the case, Thanos should have had an instant kill you button

Arthur (4:12:23 PM): and game over

Julian Lytle (4:12:41 PM): how am I crack head

Julian Lytle (4:12:58 PM): no he shouldn’t cause he lost

Julian Lytle (4:13:37 PM): I don’t want even

Julian Lytle (4:13:55 PM): I want to feel and accomplishment when I kick juggernaut’s ass with Spider-man

Julian Lytle (4:14:03 PM): cause Pete got work for that son

Julian Lytle (4:14:24 PM): but he’s Spidey, he can do that

Arthur (4:16:30 PM): IF Thanos wanted to he could have blinked them out of existence

Arthur (4:16:42 PM): but he toned himself down to make it even

Julian Lytle (4:16:52 PM): no

Julian Lytle (4:17:06 PM): he’s just dumb in love with a concept that is a being

Julian Lytle (4:17:49 PM): anyways DOOM and Richards would have found a way to win

Here is where we stopped for that day and I read his conversation with JC

Julian Lytle (9:15:30 AM): yo

Arthur (9:16:20 AM): yup yup

Julian Lytle (9:16:56 AM): you’re bugging

Julian Lytle (9:17:01 AM): I saw you convo with JC

Julian Lytle (9:17:04 AM): you’re bugging

Arthur (9:17:22 AM): what?

Arthur (9:17:30 AM): which one?

Julian Lytle (9:17:52 AM): your view on GGX vs. Xm/SF

Arthur (9:17:53 AM): BOTH of you cannot be objective…you both said that,

Arthur (9:18:06 AM): your opinions are clouded

Arthur (9:18:23 AM): and skewed towards XvsSF

Julian Lytle (9:18:46 AM): no

Julian Lytle (9:19:01 AM): I really didn’t think you were talk only artistically

Julian Lytle (9:19:06 AM): like dude

Julian Lytle (9:19:21 AM): NEVER DISRESPECT THE POWER OF THE IMAGINATION OF JACK KIRBY

Julian Lytle (9:19:39 AM): magneto’s design alone trumps everything in GG

Arthur (9:20:20 AM): ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Arthur (9:20:27 AM): You both act like it stops there

Julian Lytle (9:20:33 AM): it doesn’t

Arthur (9:20:36 AM): EVERYONE was influenced by something in his or her life

Julian Lytle (9:20:38 AM): but its better

Julian Lytle (9:20:45 AM): even Jack Hatred thinks its better

Arthur (9:20:46 AM): Jack was influenced by something

Julian Lytle (9:20:56 AM): and right now he hates American superheroes

Arthur (9:21:04 AM): WHAT was the influence was NOT in question

Julian Lytle (9:21:18 AM): it’s not about influence

Julian Lytle (9:21:23 AM): that’s magneto’s design

Julian Lytle (9:21:29 AM): it rarely ever changes

Julian Lytle (9:21:36 AM): and when it does, it goes back

Julian Lytle (9:21:42 AM): because that’s how fucking strong it is

Arthur (9:21:52 AM): …………………..

Arthur (9:21:54 AM): ………………………..

Arthur (9:21:56 AM): ……………………………

Arthur (9:22:03 AM): are you guys are krack right now?

Julian Lytle (9:22:15 AM): no you’re bugging

Arthur (9:22:17 AM): it was not a discussion about character changing

Julian Lytle (9:22:25 AM): it’s about how it looks

Julian Lytle (9:22:27 AM): and sorry

Julian Lytle (9:22:36 AM): the X-Men trump the GG designs

Julian Lytle (9:22:42 AM): not all of their designs are hot

Julian Lytle (9:22:46 AM): all the x-men are

Arthur (9:23:05 AM): yeah, cause as you both have said…. y’all are “objective”

Julian Lytle (9:23:06 AM): one of the few times that all their looks are fresh

Julian Lytle (9:23:24 AM): right now it’s on pure character design

Julian Lytle (9:23:33 AM): how many times do you design a character Arthur?

Julian Lytle (9:24:04 AM): I’ve played all the GG games, even the first one on PS1

Arthur (9:24:16 AM): its funny

Julian Lytle (9:24:23 AM): they have some real forgettable designs

Arthur (9:24:36 AM): you and JC are like talking about how the characters in GG are some type of sterotype

Julian Lytle (9:24:44 AM): but some of those characters make up for with moves and character

Julian Lytle (9:24:54 AM): I didn’t say they were a stereotype

Julian Lytle (9:25:02 AM): JC said they were a stereotype

Arthur (9:25:04 AM): and when you see the charaters in X-Men, it is them from the comics….

Arthur (9:25:15 AM): its them just animated

Julian Lytle (9:25:16 AM): that’s what they are in the game

Julian Lytle (9:25:22 AM): that year’s design

Julian Lytle (9:25:50 AM): hells when that game came out some of those costumes were no longer being used

Arthur (9:25:53 AM): the argument was that JC walked in CF and said that it was the BEST game there

Arthur (9:26:07 AM): and when i also pointed out that DS was there

Arthur (9:26:19 AM): DS is HELLA better game design than X-Men

Julian Lytle (9:26:35 AM): game design or character design?

Arthur (9:26:43 AM): to state that something that has already been out there and “looks” good is you guys not being objective

Arthur (9:27:00 AM): game design X-Men sucks

Julian Lytle (9:27:00 AM): it looks good to a lot of people

Arthur (9:27:04 AM): its broken

Julian Lytle (9:27:20 AM): it can’t suck if they are still making games on that design

Arthur (9:27:49 AM): AS A GAME

Arthur (9:28:04 AM): just because it makes $$$ does not equal a good game system

Julian Lytle (9:28:15 AM): you have a problem with the game balance

Arthur (9:28:28 AM): there fore it sucks

Julian Lytle (9:28:32 AM): JC said looks-to him that game is best looking one

Arthur (9:29:16 AM): but it isnt

Julian Lytle (9:29:22 AM): if the VS system sucks why is there such a Tournament scene for the zenith of the series MvC2

Arthur (9:29:27 AM): even he said that DS (Darkstalkers) is a better game

Julian Lytle (9:29:28 AM): no to him it is

Julian Lytle (9:29:33 AM): best looking

Arthur (9:30:02 AM): but as i’ve said, and he agreeed…DS is a better game

Arthur (9:30:09 AM): man

Julian Lytle (9:30:14 AM): it may be

Arthur (9:30:18 AM): MvC2 is ok

Julian Lytle (9:30:20 AM): as a game

Julian Lytle (9:30:32 AM): I have more fun with X-Men vs. Street Fighter though

Arthur (9:30:33 AM): but ST* (or STHD*) is sitll TOP  *Super Street Fighter II Turbo

Julian Lytle (9:30:46 AM): STHD?

Arthur (9:30:52 AM): in Japan, they dont even play that game

Julian Lytle (9:30:54 AM): oh super turbo

Arthur (9:30:56 AM): yeah

Arthur (9:30:59 AM): MvC2 is a JOKE

Arthur (9:31:07 AM): on the world scene

Julian Lytle (9:31:16 AM): so

Arthur (9:31:17 AM): hell SC (Soul Caliber) or T6 (Tekken 6) is a better game

Julian Lytle (9:31:25 AM): so

Arthur (9:31:26 AM): MvC2 is “FUN”

Arthur (9:31:31 AM): that is where it ends

Julian Lytle (9:31:36 AM): of course MvC2 would do better here

Julian Lytle (9:31:40 AM): it’s our stuff

Julian Lytle (9:31:48 AM): just like TvC (Tatsunoko vs. Capcom) won’t be a hit over here

Arthur (9:31:56 AM): so dont say “the tournament” scene

Julian Lytle (9:31:59 AM): cause people don’t give a fuck about Karas

Julian Lytle (9:32:05 AM): but old heads like me

Arthur (9:32:06 AM): say “the american tournament” scene

Arthur (9:32:34 AM): if you look at the population of each game

Arthur (9:32:48 AM): CvS, 3S, A3, STHD, MvC2, SF4

Julian Lytle (9:34:20 AM): what about it

Arthur (9:34:25 AM): I mean yeah MvC2 has a following….

Julian Lytle (9:34:34 AM): that MvC2 has I bet an entirely US following

Julian Lytle (9:34:40 AM): with some Europeans I bet

Julian Lytle (9:35:08 AM): because the biggest draw of that game is the crazy shit with 20 something odd western IPs

Arthur (9:35:22 AM): but as far as games go, EVERYONE will tell you that it is broken, not balanced,

Julian Lytle (9:35:29 AM): who cares

Julian Lytle (9:35:32 AM): its fun

Arthur (9:35:39 AM): then we agree

Arthur (9:35:41 AM): it is fun

Julian Lytle (9:35:42 AM): it has a Sentinel in it

Arthur (9:35:55 AM): it is NOT a good game in the sense that we are talking about fighting games

Julian Lytle (9:36:04 AM): you’re bringing up aesthetic

Julian Lytle (9:36:21 AM): and specifically how a game looks

Julian Lytle (9:36:28 AM): with regards to character

Arthur (9:37:09 AM): and I am saying that GG is much more pleaseing to the eye than XvsSF

Julian Lytle (9:37:14 AM): the Capcom x Marvel games have better-looking characters than GG

Julian Lytle (9:37:31 AM): GG in its first sequel has a higher resolution

Arthur (9:37:33 AM): then we agree to disagree

Julian Lytle (9:37:39 AM): and that because it was Dreamcast era

Arthur (9:37:48 AM): but you guys aren’t exactly objective

Arthur (9:37:55 AM): and i like the xmen

Julian Lytle (9:38:09 AM): we also design characters

Julian Lytle (9:38:26 AM): Sol Badguy is their best-designed character

Arthur (9:38:26 AM): the characters in X-men have a history

Julian Lytle (9:38:42 AM): Justice is second

Arthur (9:38:49 AM): so it’s not like it was something that the guys who animated it had something to NOT draw from

Julian Lytle (9:39:06 AM): someone had to design it

Julian Lytle (9:39:12 AM): so no

Julian Lytle (9:39:34 AM): the Capcom guys didn’t have to design wolverine, they just had to pick the one they wanted to use

Arthur (9:39:42 AM): exactly

Julian Lytle (9:39:47 AM): from a Jim Lee design

Julian Lytle (9:40:05 AM): but all that goes out of the window, when you put the designs side by side

Arthur (9:40:11 AM): so the IP to me from the standpoint of character design for both of those games

Arthur (9:40:15 AM): GG was original

Julian Lytle (9:40:37 AM): original doesn’t mean better

Arthur (9:41:22 AM): you’re right, but history does not mean it either

Julian Lytle (9:42:23 AM): it’s not about history

Julian Lytle (9:42:40 AM): some of those designs are just stronger

Julian Lytle (9:42:59 AM): Juggernaut is fucking excellent villain design

Julian Lytle (9:43:31 AM): Jack Kirby designed a great character in Magneto

Julian Lytle (9:43:37 AM): you don’t have to change it

Julian Lytle (9:43:54 AM): when people change it, they fuck it up

Julian Lytle (9:44:19 AM): and to use something newer than the characters in that game and GG

Arthur (9:44:37 AM): you guys are giving the X-Men more weight because of their history

Julian Lytle (9:44:38 AM): the Incredibles are some of the best superhero team designs ever done

Julian Lytle (9:44:47 AM): and that’s what 5 years old

Arthur (9:45:11 AM): if there was NO history and Juggs was just some character on the screen, YOU have to admit that not comparing things would be equal

Arthur (9:45:15 AM): and you guys cannot do that

Julian Lytle (9:45:27 AM): dude it’s a better design

Julian Lytle (9:45:32 AM): it just is

Arthur (9:45:39 AM): ok

Arthur (9:45:58 AM): when you can tell me that you truly are not wearing rose colored glasses

Arthur (9:46:28 AM): Juggs animation, and things like that in the game suck when compared to the movement in GG

Julian Lytle (9:46:30 AM): or how about you admit you’re not on my level in regards to judging character design

Arthur (9:46:33 AM): come on now

Julian Lytle (9:46:42 AM): no it doesn’t

Arthur (9:46:46 AM): SON, just because I don’t do it everyday

Arthur (9:46:55 AM): does not mean that I cannot judge them

Arthur (9:47:05 AM): that’s like saying that you can’t look at a car

Arthur (9:47:12 AM): and say is it is a good looking car or not

Julian Lytle (9:47:18 AM): original x-men/XM vs. SF has about the same frames of animation as GG

Julian Lytle (9:47:31 AM): just not at the same resolution

Arthur (9:47:35 AM): that is weak to say that I cannot judge just bcuz i dont do it

Julian Lytle (9:47:41 AM): no I can’t really critique a car design

Julian Lytle (9:47:47 AM): I do not design cars

Julian Lytle (9:47:51 AM): I am a layman

Arthur (9:47:55 AM): what you can do it say if you like it or not

Julian Lytle (9:48:02 AM): I can say what I like but I do not do that at all

Arthur (9:48:25 AM): there are SO many things in this world that you judge everyday

Arthur (9:48:31 AM): and you had nothing to do with it

Julian Lytle (9:48:51 AM): liking and critiquing are two different things

Julian Lytle (9:49:15 AM): and we judge things on different things

Arthur (9:50:07 AM): and you guys are not doing either with out erasing the history of what you know. the history of the charecters, from what is on the screen

Arthur (9:50:25 AM): you are allowing your bias to be a part of the picture

Arthur (9:50:34 AM): you both have admitted that

Julian Lytle (9:51:24 AM): of me playing the game

Julian Lytle (9:51:40 AM): and really yesterday I didn’t even understand your question

Julian Lytle (9:51:49 AM): but going by character design

Julian Lytle (9:51:52 AM): GG loses

Julian Lytle (9:52:17 AM): and really

Julian Lytle (9:52:26 AM): most of the SFers do too

Arthur (9:54:01 AM): ok

Julian Lytle (10:35:08 AM): so

Julian Lytle (10:35:14 AM): did I make you mad or something

Arthur (10:35:14 AM): here we go

Arthur (10:35:17 AM): nah

Arthur (10:35:21 AM): I aint neeva mad

Arthur (10:35:30 AM): i like these discussions

Arthur (10:35:34 AM): yall are crazy

Arthur (10:35:41 AM): its fun trying to convince crazy ppl

Arthur (10:35:42 AM): :O

Arthur (10:35:43 AM): hahahhaha

Arthur (10:35:44 AM): j/k

Julian Lytle (10:36:24 AM): so I guess Jack Hatred is crazy too

Arthur (10:36:40 AM): Jack Hatred is WAAAAY out there

Arthur (10:36:43 AM): and I like that

Arthur (10:36:55 AM): yall are a different generation

Julian Lytle (10:44:01 AM): and that has what to do with this talk

Arthur (10:44:57 AM): that in the ways that you 3 cannot view the world or relate to the same things as the generation after you

Arthur (10:45:05 AM): or the generation before me

Arthur (10:45:10 AM): its just life

Julian Lytle (10:45:44 AM): huh?

Julian Lytle (10:46:54 AM): because I think the X-Men character designs are better than GG means I can’t relate to generations before me or after me

Julian Lytle (10:47:07 AM): how does that make sense

Julian Lytle (10:47:30 AM): those designs were 30 years old when that game came out

Julian Lytle (10:48:05 AM): earlier I said the Incredibles were one of the best superhero team designs ever and that isn’t even a decade old yet

Julian Lytle (10:49:08 AM): you should explain your point

Arthur (10:51:05 AM): if you guys are going to say that you like Xmen design better than GG that’s fine

Arthur (10:51:33 AM): the short of it is, that with out a criteria set up with which to measure things by

Julian Lytle (10:51:37 AM): yeah and I’m also saying that they are better

Julian Lytle (10:51:54 AM): I do have criteria

Arthur (10:52:03 AM): you have YOURS

Arthur (10:52:38 AM): this HAS to be a situation with which everyone contributes to the pot to come up with a measurement

Julian Lytle (10:52:54 AM): yeah

Arthur (10:52:56 AM): the context is about the where he saw this

Julian Lytle (10:52:58 AM): and going by that

Julian Lytle (10:53:07 AM): then the X-Men designs are stronger

Arthur (10:53:07 AM): it was ina game

Arthur (10:53:10 AM): not a TV show

Arthur (10:53:13 AM): not in a book

Arthur (10:53:17 AM): it was not about story live

Arthur (10:53:20 AM): *line

Julian Lytle (10:53:23 AM): the designs are all the same

Arthur (10:53:26 AM): it was in a game

Julian Lytle (10:53:27 AM): it lives beyond that

Arthur (10:53:37 AM): the context of it is different

Arthur (10:53:47 AM): how it is percieved and absorbed is different

Julian Lytle (10:54:11 AM): to create a great character design, it needs to iconic it should tell you what the character is

Julian Lytle (10:54:34 AM): all this is in books and talks about character design

Arthur (10:55:10 AM): GRRRRR, of course they are iconic

Arthur (10:55:33 AM): it is excactly why i am saying

Arthur (10:56:13 AM): but since GG has not been around, as long it can’t be looked at in the same way

Arthur (10:56:40 AM): and you guys choose not to at least entertain that you guys are not doing that

Julian Lytle (10:56:51 AM): yet as I said something like the Incredibles can

Julian Lytle (10:57:06 AM): or lets use some thing Japanese

Julian Lytle (10:57:14 AM): Spike from Cowboy Bebop

Julian Lytle (10:57:48 AM): two things that are about younger than most of the GG characters

Arthur (11:01:23 AM): OK, here it is…. walk in, look at both as games, both in terms of characters that are played, both as they are animated, and both for their play mechanics.

Julian Lytle (11:02:45 AM): GG or GGx

Arthur (11:03:27 AM): if you would like to have GGX vs MvC2, by all means

Arthur (11:03:47 AM): GG vS XvsSF

Arthur (11:03:49 AM): sup to you

Julian Lytle (11:04:23 AM): I’m just saying going with GG on ps1 vs. XM/SF

Julian Lytle (11:04:33 AM): X-Men vs. Street Fighter is more enticing

Julian Lytle (11:04:41 AM): its really bananas

Arthur (11:04:44 AM): no no

Arthur (11:04:47 AM): this is the arcade

Arthur (11:04:50 AM): NOT home console

Julian Lytle (11:04:57 AM): there was no arcade release to guilty gear

Arthur (11:05:01 AM): home console do not count in this siutation

Julian Lytle (11:05:03 AM): GGX yes

Julian Lytle (11:05:07 AM): no to the first GG

Arthur (11:05:28 AM): ok so lets do GGx vs MvC2 as it is more up to date than XvSF

Julian Lytle (11:05:58 AM): MvC2

Julian Lytle (11:06:03 AM): its bananas

Julian Lytle (11:06:14 AM): there is like 6 characters on the screen at once

Julian Lytle (11:06:21 AM): flashing lights

Arthur (11:06:24 AM): lol

Julian Lytle (11:06:30 AM): cue Kanye

I like that I’m WAAAAY out there I should be. sitting on a planet drinking space tea with galactus.
I mean, seriously.teh age has significance in judging design and branding because of staying power. I can’t differentiate guilty gears characters from dozens of other characters I’ve seen in whatever anime. When I remember the main(?) character I keep getting riding bean in my head. I kinda remember the big guy from GG. Part of the beauty/charm of teh characters from xmen is the simplicity. It makes them iconic. for instance… with capcom just putting a guy in a gi is such a tough design decision and just giving him torn sleaves and a red head band to differentiate him from whatever other gi wearing characters… that’s a TOUGH decision. (not taking into consideration the sonny chiba Oyama comparison) I respect this design. It’s like making all of the xmen wear school uniforms. BRAZEN. You can’t deny that tis design is better on it’s own than ALL of the GG designs. I’ll never forget RYU. His design is so strong, it could survive in 8bit. Could you say that about GG chara. I could draw ryu with 5 lines and you’d recognize him… I could put his swatches on a page and you’d recognize him if I said “fighting game”. And I won’t even mention all the other SF characters…  They work even in SF2 because of how strong the design is. For cripes sake, the only thing  that makes SF4 vaguely bearable to look at is how strong the design of the original 8 world warriors is.
…now onto marvel… well… the designs are so singular and graphic that you never forget them either.
Juggernaut passes the silhouette test. None of the GG characters pass this test. Juggernaut is the personification of a fucking bullet.
GG is fun… it’s like… you know when you see a chick, and she ain’t as hot as your chick, but you just want to fuck her a few times… that’s guilty gear. You don’t wanna see what your kids will look like… it’s just new and shiny… and kinda look like the TYPE of chick you would want to fuck with. GG is innovative for taking anime stereotype, production values and narrative tropes and applying them to a video game. GG always looked like a fan made game to me… like the best and got together and said, these are all the platitudes we love, let’s make them into a character. My favorite thing about GG are the nods to metal acts… and the thing is, even conceptually, they fail when it comes to this

Oh yeah, and I don’t know what all those games are, you guys are talking about.

– Jack Hatred